Google Groups Archives for this Usenet newsgroup

[Andy Burnelli]

This was just posted on the Windows newsgroups, but it applies equally to
those on these specialty newsgroups who search before they ask questions.
*Google Groups Archives for this Usenet newsgroup*

Paul wrote:

> Google Groups stopped adding groups, some time ago.
>
> It has added a ton of its own private groups.
> Which nobody cares about.

Hi Paul,

I often run a search before asking questions, and when researching
issues to help answer others, so I've been involved in this for years.

I think your assumption is not quite accurate, as I have been using Google
Groups archival links for many years, but I didn't do any explicit research
so it's just my "experienced assumption" that Google _does_ add groups.

They're just extremely selective about which groups they bother to add. :)
<alt.usage.english>
<news.software.readers>
<alt.free.newsservers>
<comp.text.pdf>
<alt.comp.software.thunderbird>
<alt.comp.software.firefox>
<rec.photo.digital>
<rec.autos.tech>
<alt.home.repair>
<alt.comp.microsoft.windows>
<microsoft.public.windowsxp.general>
<alt.comp.os.windows-11>
<alt.comp.os.windows-10>
<alt.comp.os.windows-8>
<alt.windows7.general>
<alt.msdos.batch>
<alt.os.linux>
<comp.mobile.android>
<comp.mobile.ipad>
<misc.phone.mobile.iphone>
<alt.comp.freeware>
<comp.sys.mac.apps>
<comp.sys.mac.system>
<comp.sys.mac.advocacy>
<alt.internet.wireless>
<sci.electronics.repair>
<sci.geo.satellite-nav>
etc.

It was well before Google changed their archival links to something easy
to remember when the "N" archives used exactly those monikers, namely:
<https://alt.usage.english.narchive.com>
<https://alt.free.newsservers.narchive.com>
<https://news.software.readers.narchive.com>
<https://comp.text.pdf.narchive.com>
<https://alt.comp.software.thunderbird.narchive.com>
<https://alt.comp.software.firefox.narchive.com>
<https://rec.photo.digital.narchive.com>
<https://rec.autos.tech.narchive.com>
<https://alt.home.repair.narchive.com>
<https://alt.comp.microsoft.windows.narchive.com>
<https://microsoft.public.windowsxp.general.narchive.com>
<https://alt.comp.os.windows-11.narchive.com>
<https://alt.comp.os.windows-10.narchive.com>
<https://alt.comp.os.windows-8.narchive.com>
<https://alt.windows7.general.narchive.com>
<https://alt.msdos.batch.narchive.com>
<https://alt.os.linux.narchive.com>
<https://comp.mobile.android.narchive.com>
<https://comp.mobile.ipad.narchive.com>
<https://misc.phone.mobile.iphone.narchive.com>
<https://alt.comp.freeware.narchive.com>
<https://comp.sys.mac.apps.narchive.com>
<https://comp.sys.mac.system.narchive.com>
<https://comp.sys.mac.advocacy.narchive.com>
<https://alt.internet.wireless.narchive.com>
<https://sci.electronics.repair.narchive.com>
<https://sci.geo.satellite-nav.narchive.com>
etc.

At the time I had used a combination of N archives & google groups links
which were the best I could do then to publish web-searchable archives:
<https://tinyurl.com/alt-usage-english>
<https://tinyurl.com/news-software-readers>
<https://tinyurl.com/alt-free-newsservers>
<https://tinyurl.com/comp-text-pdf>
<https://tinyurl.com/alt-comp-software-thunderbird>
<https://tinyurl.com/alt-comp-software-firefox>
<https://tinyurl.com/rec-photo-digital>
<https://tinyurl.com/rec-autos-tech>
<https://tinyurl.com/alt-home-repair>
<https://tinyurl.com/alt-comp-microsoft-windows>
<https://tinyurl.com/microsoft-public-windowsxp-gen> (30-character limit)
I also had created an easier URL:<https://tinyurl.com/windowsxp-general>
<alt.comp.os.windows-11> At the time this didn't exist for me to set up
<https://tinyurl.com/alt-comp-os-windows-10>
<https://tinyurl.com/alt-comp-os-windows-8>
<https://tinyurl.com/alt-comp-os-windows-7>
<https://tinyurl.com/alt-windows7-general>
<https://tinyurl.com/alt-msdos-batch>
<https://tinyurl.com/alt-os-linux>
<https://tinyurl.com/comp-mobile-android>
<https://tinyurl.com/comp-mobile-ipad>
<https://tinyurl.com/misc-phone-mobile-iphone>
<https://tinyurl.com/alt-comp-freeware>
<https://tinyurl.com/comp-sys-mac-apps>
<https://tinyurl.com/comp-sys-mac-system>
<https://tinyurl.com/comp-sys-mac-advocacy>
<https://tinyurl.com/alt-internet-wireless>
<https://tinyurl.com/sci-electronics-repair>
<https://tinyurl.com/sci-geo-satellite-nav>
etc.

Note these are all so old they link to the now-deprecated Google Groups
which had recently been DejaNews archived at that time of formation:
<https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/alt.usage.english>
<https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/news.software.readers>
<https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/alt.free.newsservers>
<https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/comp.text.pdf>
<https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/alt.comp.software.thunderbird>
<https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/alt.comp.software.firefox>
<https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/rec.photo.digital>
<https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/rec.autos.tech>
<https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/alt.home.repair>
<https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/alt.comp.microsoft.windows>
<https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/microsoft.public.windowsxp.general>
<alt.comp.os.windows-11> At the time this didn't exist for me to set up
<http://www.pcbanter.net/forumdisplay.php?f=52> for Windows 10
<http://www.pcbanter.net/forumdisplay.php?f=50> for Windows-8
<http://www.pcbanter.net/forumdisplay.php?f=48> for Windows-7
<https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/alt.msdos.batch>
<https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/alt.os.linux>
<https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/comp.mobile.android>
<https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/comp.mobile.ipad>
<https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/misc.phone.mobile.iphone>
<https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/alt.comp.freeware>
<https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/comp.sys.mac.apps>
<https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/comp.sys.mac.system>
<https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/comp.sys.mac.advocacy>
<https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/alt.internet.wireless>
<https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/sci.electronics.repair>
<https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/sci.geo.satellite-nav>
etc.

Which, after the great reshuffling, currently boil down to the following
much easier to remember and logically derived Google Groups search links:
<https://groups.google.com/g/alt.usage.english>
<https://groups.google.com/g/news.software.readers>
<https://groups.google.com/g/alt.free.newsservers>
<https://groups.google.com/g/comp.text.pdf>
<https://groups.google.com/g/alt.comp.software.thunderbird>
<https://groups.google.com/g/alt.comp.software.firefox>
<https://groups.google.com/g/rec.photo.digital>
<https://groups.google.com/g/rec.autos.tech>
<https://groups.google.com/g/alt.home.repair>
<https://groups.google.com/g/alt.comp.microsoft.windows>
<https://groups.google.com/g/microsoft.public.windowsxp.general>
<alt.comp.os.windows-11>
<alt.comp.os.windows-10>
<alt.comp.os.windows-8>
<alt.windows7.general>
<https://groups.google.com/g/alt.msdos.batch>
<https://groups.google.com/g/alt.os.linux>
<https://groups.google.com/g/comp.mobile.android>
<https://groups.google.com/g/comp.mobile.ipad>
<https://groups.google.com/g/misc.phone.mobile.iphone>
<https://groups.google.com/g/alt.comp.freeware>
<https://groups.google.com/g/comp.sys.mac.apps>
<https://groups.google.com/g/comp.sys.mac.system>
<https://groups.google.com/g/comp.sys.mac.advocacy>
<https://groups.google.com/g/alt.internet.wireless>
<https://groups.google.com/g/sci.electronics.repair>
<https://groups.google.com/g/sci.geo.satellite-nav>
etc.

In summary, I "think" Google _does_ add groups when _they_ see fit.
They just do NOT see fit to add Windows variants as archived groups.
--
Posted out of the goodness of my heart to disseminate useful information
which, in this case, is to faithfully elucidate group search archival URLs.

[Andy Burns]

Andy Burnelli wrote:

> In summary, I "think" Google _does_ add groups when _they_ see fit.

After I sent the control message for the win11 group (the original
proponent seemingly having abandoned it) I tried to request that google
add it, no reply. Then Grant Taylor also tried (he has some "contacts")
and was told they no longer add new usenet groups to google groups.

As far as I'm aware only one Big8 group has been created since the B8MB
arrived back from their vacation to Mars, and that
(comp.infosystems.gemini) hasn't been added to google groups either, so
I do tend to believe that google aren't adding new groups ...

[Andy Burnelli]

Hi Andy,
Thanks for that update, which I much appreciate, as I took have tried
to get Google to archive certain newsgroups, so no practical avail.

That's why I resorted to the tinyurl links, until Google finally relented
on the obscure link terminology in favor of the simpler "g" group syntax.

I have three comments to add to the useful information you supplied...

1. The only archived Windows ngs, are the WinXP & Windows general groups.
<https://groups.google.com/g/alt.comp.microsoft.windows>
<https://groups.google.com/g/microsoft.public.windowsxp.general>
Which is why it's a good idea, for canonical topics like for tutorials,
to cross post to a.c.m.w even though nobody is actually on it, per se.

2. Grant Taylor, to his credit, did respond but in a different newsgroup.
*Google Groups Archives for this newsgroup*
<https://groups.google.com/g/alt.comp.freeware/c/SInASENSXmg>

"I have first hand experience with Google refusing to
create new Usenet newsgroups. N.B. Google Groups (proper)
is completely different than the Google Groups Usenet interface.
I speculate that Google is going to discontinue their Usenet
support at some point in the future, much like they
discontinue other things."

3. To Grant's point, a lot of people get Usenet confused with Google
Groups, perhaps because Google "seeded" their interface when they
picked up DejaNews' web-searchable archives long ago.

My suggestion is for users to use the "groups.google.com/g/"
interface for searches, where it has been my experience the search
engine is about as good/bad as "dogpile" was back in the day.

Not good. Not horrible. If you know what you're looking for, you'll
find it; but it's nothing like the search engine of Google itself.

Anything else people need to know about these Usenet newsgroup
web-searchable permanent archives?

[T]

I tried once to get these windows groups archived too
such that they would be searchable. I remember Google
was just a bunch of ass holes about it.

If memory serves me, they said to use the M$'s next to
useless forums. M$'s forums are pretty bad, but not
totally useless.

[Andy Burnelli]

T wrote:

> I tried once to get these windows groups archived too
> such that they would be searchable. I remember Google
> was just a bunch of ass holes about it.
>
> If memory serves me, they said to use the M$'s next to
> useless forums. M$'s forums are pretty bad, but not
> totally useless.

It might be good for everyone to list those forums so we can test them.

Meanwhile, one mistake I made in my prior post that Andy Burns pointed out
is I misspelled "narkive" as "narchive" for some brain-fart reason. Sorry.

Here is the correct spelling for the related "N" archives...
<https://alt.usage.english.narkive.com>
<https://alt.free.newsservers.narkive.com>
<https://news.software.readers.narkive.com>
<https://comp.text.pdf.narkive.com>
<https://alt.comp.software.thunderbird.narkive.com>
<https://alt.comp.software.firefox.narkive.com>
<https://rec.photo.digital.narkive.com>
<https://rec.autos.tech.narkive.com>
<https://alt.home.repair.narkive.com>
<https://alt.comp.microsoft.windows.narkive.com>
<https://microsoft.public.windowsxp.general.narkive.com>
<https://alt.comp.os.windows-11.narkive.com>
<https://alt.comp.os.windows-10.narkive.com>
<https://alt.comp.os.windows-8.narkive.com>
<https://alt.windows7.general.narkive.com>
<https://alt.msdos.batch.narkive.com>
<https://alt.os.linux.narkive.com>
<https://comp.mobile.android.narkive.com>
<https://comp.mobile.ipad.narkive.com>
<https://misc.phone.mobile.iphone.narkive.com>
<https://alt.comp.freeware.narkive.com>
<https://comp.sys.mac.apps.narkive.com>
<https://comp.sys.mac.system.narkive.com>
<https://comp.sys.mac.advocacy.narkive.com>
<https://alt.internet.wireless.narkive.com>
<https://sci.electronics.repair.narkive.com>
<https://sci.geo.satellite-nav.narkive.com>
etc.

[Andy Burnelli]

Frank Miller wrote:

>> Everybody complains about the weather but nobody does a thing about it.
>> What do you know that's better for searching usenet articles?
>> David Knight?
>
> I think you mean Howard Knight.. http://al.howardknight.net/

I never log into the google groups search engine where it used to be that
you could get the headers, including the message-id, without logging in.

But now you can't get the headers anymore - and I never log into Google
Groups so I don't know if even logging in provides those headers.

Does it?

If someone has logged into the groups.google.com/g/<name of usenet ng>,
can you let the rest of us know if the all-important message-id is given?

Without that all-important message-id, I don't think Howard Knight is
useful as a search engine to provide links for others to follow, is it?

[Andy Burns]

Andy Burnelli wrote:

> If someone has logged into the groups.google.com/g/<name of usenet ng>,
> can you let the rest of us know if the all-important message-id is given?

No, but you used to.

Even if logged-in, and even if joined the group (whatever that means)
you can't see headers, because you don't have "view member email
permission" which may be meaningful for a google group but obviously not
for a usenet group. I suspect google would ignore any question related
to permissions, or need "the owner" of the group to give permission, at
which point they've lost the plot ...

[Andy Burnelli]

Andy Burns wrote:

>> If someone has logged into the groups.google.com/g/<name of usenet ng>,
>> can you let the rest of us know if the all-important message-id is given?
>
> No, but you used to.

Thanks for testing the headers, Andy, as you're credible so I believe you.
Without the message-id, we can't really use Howard Knight, afaict.

This means we have precious few ways of running a general search of the
permanent Usenet archives (other than groups.google.com & narkive.com).

Other than relying on those two and/or the largesse of your nntp server
(or even your own downloads of articles & headers), if anyone knows of a
better general purpose Usenet server search mechanism, please elucidate.

[Andy Burnelli]

lar3ryca wrote:

> What am I missing? I see no way to search the archive.

Hmmmm... I am no fan of either the groups.google.com/g/name.of.ng or the
name.of.ng.narkive.com mechanism, but both "should" run a basic search.

If I click on "Display Options", more stuff comes up, but not the search.

Going to <https://alt.comp.os.windows-10.narkive.com> to test the findings,
I see what you mean. What happened to their "search" button feature?

Thank you for pointing that out as I looked about and didn't see it either.

Apparently you can "register an account" but that's not the point here.
<https://narkive.com/about>
<https://narkive.com/privacy>
<https://narkive.com/legalese>

I sent an email asking for what happened to the search button.
"Narkive was started in late 2009 by then 17-year-old me (Davide Cavion)
and has since then always been a one man operation (david @ narkive com).

Hacking, I guess we could add "site:narkive.com" to a search engine as
I'm going to agree with you that I can't find the search button anymore.
<https://duckduckgo.com/?va=u&t=hi&q=lar3ryca+site%253Anarkive.com>
<https://www.google.com/search?q=lar3ryca+site%253Anarkive.com>
<https://www.google.com/search?q=lar3ryca+alt.free.newsservers+site%253Anarkive.com>

Sigh. We're left with dejagoogle alone for a _direct_ free general purpose
registration free Usenet search engine then... unless you have better ideas
(where I'm aware every nntp server provides their own private archives).

I apologize for my mistake in not testing the narkive (mostly I use the
dejagoogle archives when I need to find & then link to a specific thread).

--
Posted out of the goodness of my heart to disseminate useful information

which, in this case, is to faithfully test out the narkive search finding.

[Andy Burnelli]

Sn!pe wrote:

> "alt.free.nntp does not exist on this server"

AFAICT, alt.free.nntp is listed in dejagoogle & in the narkive:
<https://groups.google.com/g/alt.free.nntp>
<https://alt.free.nntp.narkive.com/> (first post 20 years ago)

Aioe, Blueworld, Dizum, Neodome, Mixmin, Netfront, Paganini, Solani,
and XSUsenet all show that they served alt.free.nntp to their users.

I'm no expert though - I just use free newsservers that I know about.
I use them mainly for privacy (paying usually requires credit cards).

Is there anyone who knows more about why it's not in snipe's feed?

[Arlen Holder]

On 30/03/2023 21:20, Andy Burnelli wrote:
>
>
> I use them mainly for trolling and spamming (paying usually requires
> credit cards).
>
>

We know this all along. You don't need to broadcast this to the entire
world.